Thoughts on Saturn DAO, DAOstack and Aragon


#1

Interesting conversation happened yesterday in Saturn’s trader lounge which I thought might interest some of you, notably Neuron’s thoughts on how Saturn DAO can grow and also thoughts on DAOstack and Aragon.

Some nice points from @Oracuse and @Neuron about crypto in general and the direction the industry is taking, well worth a read so thought I would save it all for you here!

Eric Binkley, [02.02.19 15:42]
After reading this again you really realize how Epic Saturn.Network really is… Time to buy some more Saturn because at some point it explodes in growth. It is inevitable. The best solution for the job generally wins the day! :smiley:

Neuron, [02.02.19 16:38]
While I obviously agree, haha, I think you’re missing the forest for the trees.

Neuron, [02.02.19 16:38]
for example, there’s lots of hype around uniswap right now, as it’s easier for casual users to just deposit tokens to provide liquidity as opposed to running trading bots. At the moment I don’t particularly like the way Uniswap or Bancor deal with pricing, the smart contract sets the price based on ratio as opposed to humans setting the price they want to.

There are pros and cons to both approaches regardless of that, the whole point is not the exchange, it’s the DAO.

It’s a DAO that does multiple businesses. For example, microsoft does operating systems, office suits, cloud services. The DAO can have multiple revenue streams as well and every online business owned by the DAO is modular. If the way Saturn does things is deemed to be not good enough (i.e. our approach to DEXs sucks and there are better ways to DEX). Then we can just swap out the engine, so to speak, and adopt the winning solution at any point in time because it’s foolish to assume that we know what’s best today.

Eric Binkley, [02.02.19 16:41]
This is genius. Pure genius.

Neuron, [02.02.19 16:42]
What we need to strive for is making sure we have the incentive structures aligned in such way that Saturn DAO ALWAYS remains relevant

Fabian, [02.02.19 17:50]
@NeuronOfRados when talking approaches to building a DAO, what you think about Aragon project (Aragon.org/project)

Neuron, [02.02.19 19:33]
Aragon project have a bad business model. They have costs + expenses and no revenue.

Kawin Rungsimuntakul | Dash Ambassador | Saturn Network DAO | DAOStack Pollinator, [02.02.19 19:34]
I can tell you there is no business model - or at least, comparable one.

Neuron, [02.02.19 19:34]
And revenue is fundamentally not possible in their business, unless they pivot into offering additional services.

Neuron, [02.02.19 19:34]
[In reply to Kawin Rungsimuntakul | Dash Ambassador | Saturn Network DAO | DAOStack Pollinator]
Well that is exactly what I am talking about.

Neuron, [02.02.19 19:34]
So raising money from investors is dishonest and scammy.

Neuron, [02.02.19 19:34]
Aragon project scammed investors, because this money is fundamentally just a donation to create a product that is a public good - their code can be later reused by other projects that do have a good business model.

Kawin Rungsimuntakul | Dash Ambassador | Saturn Network DAO | DAOStack Pollinator, [02.02.19 19:35]
[In reply to Neuron]
Yes this is big pink elephant in the genDAO room - well i don’t know how they framed that one.

Neuron, [02.02.19 19:36]
Maybe I’m just annoyed because we raised ~150k (i think) with a good business model and working product :smile:

Kawin Rungsimuntakul | Dash Ambassador | Saturn Network DAO | DAOStack Pollinator, [02.02.19 19:36]
Did they hype financial returns? Dunno about that. Big grey area? Perhaps. Non-monetary value? Definitely.

Neuron, [02.02.19 19:37]
[In reply to Kawin Rungsimuntakul | Dash Ambassador | Saturn Network DAO | DAOStack Pollinator]
You can do a legal and unethical thing at the same time. Market irrationality and predatory marketing practices of some projects (and effectiveness of these practices) is killing me inside, a little bit :frowning: but hey, it is what it is :slightly_smiling_face:

Kawin Rungsimuntakul | Dash Ambassador | Saturn Network DAO | DAOStack Pollinator, [02.02.19 19:38]
[In reply to Neuron]
lol but we didn’t play the ICO-rape game for more reasons than $

Neuron, [02.02.19 19:38]
yes, because it was the wrong thing to do and is bad for cryptocurrency community and development.

Kawin Rungsimuntakul | Dash Ambassador | Saturn Network DAO | DAOStack Pollinator, [02.02.19 19:39]
All of us steadfast in the industry are eating shit as a result of unethical ico bs.

Neuron, [02.02.19 19:39]
Now all the losses in token prices due to projects raising money for bad business models + outright exit scams are giving a bad name to the whole sector. Furthermore, legit projects are being hurt by this phenomena as well - there is only so much money in the world, and it is the role of the markets to allocate capital among projects and when capital is not properly allocated it leads to recessions which hurts pretty much everyone in the process.

Kawin Rungsimuntakul | Dash Ambassador | Saturn Network DAO | DAOStack Pollinator, [02.02.19 19:42]
Can put a finger on ICO review, network marketing shillers, all sorts of ugly human behaviour came out for what happened to happen.

Neuron, [02.02.19 19:42]
[In reply to Kawin Rungsimuntakul | Dash Ambassador | Saturn Network DAO | DAOStack Pollinator]
Smart and competent people can be selectively stupid in some cases when their paychecks depend upon this selective ignorance.

Neuron, [02.02.19 19:42]
[In reply to Kawin Rungsimuntakul | Dash Ambassador | Saturn Network DAO | DAOStack Pollinator]
that’s what I am talking about. you can do legal, but wrong and unethical things at the same time. It is the investors that should regulate the economy.

Kawin Rungsimuntakul | Dash Ambassador | Saturn Network DAO | DAOStack Pollinator, [02.02.19 19:43]
at the end of the day, stupidity + laziness = some fucked up unethical shit

Neuron, [02.02.19 19:43]
but investors behave like herded sheep and just HODL. We collectively need to figure out a way to figure out the root causes and fix them to build up proper incentive structures.

Kawin Rungsimuntakul | Dash Ambassador | Saturn Network DAO | DAOStack Pollinator, [02.02.19 19:44]
Actually the govts fucked up on that one… regulation is still piss poor

Neuron, [02.02.19 19:44]
[In reply to Kawin Rungsimuntakul | Dash Ambassador | Saturn Network DAO | DAOStack Pollinator]
Recently I am thinking it was intentional.

Kawin Rungsimuntakul | Dash Ambassador | Saturn Network DAO | DAOStack Pollinator, [02.02.19 19:44]
[In reply to Neuron]
Hear hear

Kawin Rungsimuntakul | Dash Ambassador | Saturn Network DAO | DAOStack Pollinator, [02.02.19 19:44]
[In reply to Neuron]
I believe it

Neuron, [02.02.19 19:44]
they let the scammers run loose, so that people get burned and now look at mass media. Cryptocurrency is synonymous with SCAM for the majority of people and they won’t look past this.

Kawin Rungsimuntakul | Dash Ambassador | Saturn Network DAO | DAOStack Pollinator, [02.02.19 19:45]
Ugly. games of human condition - the kind we are trying to escape

Neuron, [02.02.19 19:45]
The governments use the same tactic too - look at all those rekt people! That is because cryptocurrency was unregulated, and only we know how to do it best! We let you self regulate, you didn’t - now pay the price.

Kawin Rungsimuntakul | Dash Ambassador | Saturn Network DAO | DAOStack Pollinator, [02.02.19 19:46]
“Fool a man for eternity, or fool everyone once; but you cannot fool everyone for eternity”

Neuron, [02.02.19 19:46]
[In reply to Kawin Rungsimuntakul | Dash Ambassador | Saturn Network DAO | DAOStack Pollinator]
Agreed, if you do the right thing and you’re able to sustain yourself for long enough
then history tends to reward the right thing.

Kawin Rungsimuntakul | Dash Ambassador | Saturn Network DAO | DAOStack Pollinator, [02.02.19 19:47]
I try. It gets real hard though.

Neuron, [02.02.19 19:47]
I think we need to employ the same tactic on the government regulation, they put a blind eye and got people scammed and fucked up the industry.

Kawin Rungsimuntakul | Dash Ambassador | Saturn Network DAO | DAOStack Pollinator, [02.02.19 19:48]
:thinking:

Neuron, [02.02.19 19:48]
Now they’re getting control. Now is the age of KYC-everything, centralized control (dusguised as decentralized, i.e. IDEX and upcoming binance DEX). Blockchain forensics like chainalysis, so let these forces do their thing.

Kawin Rungsimuntakul | Dash Ambassador | Saturn Network DAO | DAOStack Pollinator, [02.02.19 19:49]
What’s the counterplay? DAOs.

Neuron, [02.02.19 19:49]
Fundamentally I think that regulating global financial markets is a fools errand. You cannot be smarter than everybody all the time, and I think regulators are going to regulate themselves into a corner.

Kawin Rungsimuntakul | Dash Ambassador | Saturn Network DAO | DAOStack Pollinator, [02.02.19 19:50]
It is, fundamentally nonsensical.

Neuron, [02.02.19 19:50]
let’s say I have some BTC and I want to lie fiat-less life, today it is quite hard - paying rent/utilities, paying for food, going to a cinema. It’s all fiat, so you need to convert but if using crypto becomes massively more convenient than using fiat, i.e. simply scan a QR code and make a lightning payment vs do KYC for coffee. Then fiat will just kill itself through regulation.

Kawin Rungsimuntakul | Dash Ambassador | Saturn Network DAO | DAOStack Pollinator, [02.02.19 19:52]
well there’s people who are trying their darnest…

Neuron, [02.02.19 19:52]
Regulation is only applicable to crypto<>fiat exchanges, as soon as it’s crypto only regulators are out.